Basically, Expelled tarnishes all Darwinist and evolutionists as maniacal murderers responsible for the worst atrocities of man. Linking Hitler and Darwinism is basically a specious argument, after all how many Christian Germans prayed to God that Hitler would triumph? Should we equate Christianity with the Nazis too? That’s stupid and simplistic, right? Or do we just ignore the previous two thousand years of anti-Semitism in Europe and assume it had it had no impact on the holocaust or do we blame all Christians for the camps? Again, that’s a simplistic answer.

I believe that you can be a Christian and a Darwinist, too. To me, one is science and the other is faith and they each have their place in life, one in a class room, the other in a church. If ID is truly a valid scientific theory then win the debate within the scientific journals through peer review not in the court of public opinion (and please don’t give me that nonsense that the ID proponents lost their jobs, that was basically a Michael Moore liberty if I ever saw one.) This is how science advances and why should the mechanism change just because proponents of ID have lost the debate years ago? This is not about free speech, this is about science. To date, the arguments of irreducible complexity are not enough to allow ID to stand as a valid scientific theory. And even if it was what can you do with it as theory? What predictive models will come from ID other than to ask us to marvel at god’s handiwork?

Here’s a quote from my http://www.millenniumwriting.com site that Jason provided from St. Augustine:

“For then, to defend their utterly foolish and obviously untrue statements, they will try to call upon Holy Scripture for proof and even recite from memory many passages which they think support their position, although they understand neither what they say nor the things about which they make assertion. [1 Timothy 1.7]“

Erik John Bertel
Author of Flores Girl: The Children God Forgot

I’ll be happy to add that monotheism fuels a hell of a disagreement when two people insist that there’s only one god and goshnabbit, it’s definitely not yours. Polytheists don’t have this problem, though the attitude is making it’s way via right-wing religious nuts in a polytheistic stronghold like India.

There’s some ancient Hindu scripture that advised reconsidering the faith in the context of contemporary society - that’s forward thinking. It’s ignored in practice as people are too insistent on maintaining the status quo, but it’s a lot nicer than the threat of being smote down. (though that threat is there, but often without the guilt factor)

I’m new to your blog and haven’t read much, but I’m guessing there’s no unschooling support group in your area? Ours has been a boon to our lives.

The chicken sandwich incident: the child was 13 years old. The situation made me uncomfortable which is why wrote about it.. Had the girl said no I most likely would have said if you have the chicken it may upset your mom and she may not not want you to hang out here and make it her choice.
I also spoke with my friend about it later and we would have been able to talk through the situation.

Explaining consequences and helping kids make good decision is what unschooling is about . Not JUST giving them free rein.

When you are truthful with kids from where then are small and look hard at decisions that may seem arbitrary then they trust you and you trust them.

You have no need to justify your families decisions. I don’t;have to understand your reasoning- I am trying to get across that is is unfair for others to expect a family with different values to enforce your practices. That is rude to me.
I don;t mean force feeding you kids and offering them forbidden foods- I mean when they make a choice to eat them/ask for them. Puts me in weird place. Would rather you didn’t send your kids along if you expect me to enforce rules I don’t follow.

You did say your kids were young so most likely your kids are not being left at others houses yet. As they get older your social network changes and you will be drawn to people who “think” like you. The challenge is trying to fit in with others that don’t.
In an homeschool or unschool environment there are most likely other vegans who have similar views to you. As kids get older and social circle branches out to neighbours or kids from dance or soccer having a viewpoint outside the norm gets really hard.
As potential home schooler you may have made choices all ready where you are constantly swimming upstream- nursing your kids til they or 3/4, co-sleeping, etc. an sometimes it is tiring.
When my kids got to be about 5 or 5- school age- going outside my comfort zone of like minded parents became harder. Even withing homeschooling community .

I like a lot of people however when my kids were small I didn’t have them go their houses. A long time ago I let my ;et 4 year sleep over at my brothers house. They had been asking for a long time and my daughter was really excited abut it. They had a small baby and all ready alarm bells were going off. I told then she most likely would need SIL to stay with her til she fell asleep and not to leave . That was the only my daughter was worried about. I spoke with them and could see them holding off from rolling there eyes. I know NOW they think I am nuts but back then didn’t fully realize the level of difference in our parenting.
I must have spoke with them about 4 times and was reassured they would not leave her , etc. Sure enough the next day when i got they they were quite proud to tel me that she went to be fine- they shut the lights out ” and she only cried for about 10 minutes and was fine”

I am still mad to this day. I felt lied to and regret leaving her there when I had y doubts.

If you asked me to not feed your 4 year old a hamburger I would not feed her a hamburger. If you ask me to not feed your 12 year old a hamburger I would actually tell you that wasn’t something i was comfortable with and would make me uncomfortable. If you were “making: your child not eat meat and they wanted to I would have a really hard time with it and we probably wouldn’t be friends.
The sugar one I don;t know why is different. Your kids are small so you have a lot of control over what they eat. If you sen d13 year out and couldn’t have sugar that is maybe where trouble starts.

A coupe of weeks ago a gril 12 was here and later I found out the family didn’t eat sugar- or not so much sugar as candy type stuff. Rules are but vague to me as they eat home made brownies and organic chocolate. Anyway- I took kids to bulk store and said they could pick out a treat and the one girl got some dates and that was it. Obviously was an ideal that she embraced and knew how to deal with.

Older kids can make a choice- If go to so and so’s house they don’t allow video games so leave DS here if you want to go.

My son has asthma and can’t be exposed to cigarette smoke. I don’t send him to a kids house where people smoke. I don’t ask the parent not to smoke in their house I just don’t send him.

Part of the process of unschooling is examining our choice and how we can do it different or better and I find a lot of it is taking responsibility for our own actions.

Reading your story about giving that child a chicken sandwich made me angry. You didn’t know how the mom would feel, so it seems reasonable to assume she hadn’t been warned of your philosophy. That seems very rude to me.

You are right that I should know the parent and trust them before my child spends time with them. Yet just because I like you and we get along doesn’t mean I have a clue that you will not enforce my rules.

I respect, though I do not agree…with your way of doing things.I just think it is so very rude not to warn parents before you have their kids over.

#2

Since We are vegan partly in protest to the horrible factory farms, I do not feel it is the right time to explain to my children about that torture. They are too young and sensitive right now. That does not mean that when they grow up a little more they won’t be given a choice.Right now though, they could not make an informed, much less mature choice. As a parent though, it is up to me to decide when I think they are mature enough. That is MY decision not some other parent with a different opinion.

As for sugar…most of our family has blood sugar problems due to life long sugar addictions. I refuse to set my children on that same path. When they are a little older and understand what it means to have an occasional treat without expecting it all the time, then they will have more say in what they get for a snack.

By that time, they will also have developed good, lifelong habits….my ultimate goal as a parent.

Children do have a right to say what happens to their bodies. They also have a right to responsible parenting that protects them from harm, even if that means, when they are young, limiting their choices. At some point, limits need to be lifted as they mature, so they can practice making good choices and learn from bad ones. Yet to give them free rein before they are ready is only irresponsible and naive.

When is a big decision, and best left up the parents of that child.

We are all one of THOSE parents. we all have different ideas.
I have a radical unschooling blog. I am not writing about ways to make my kids conform.

You might not ever send your kid to my house. I hope you wouldn’t have them come over without knowing me or anything about our family and how it works.

You write ” You DO NOT EVER, have the right, to allow other children to break their family rules.”

Umm. yeah I do. In my house. You do have a choice to bring them or not bring them I am not hiding anything.

If in your house kids are given a time out or spanked when they don’t finish food on their plate or talk back i am not going to give them time out or spank them.

If you tell me that you don;t allow your kids to watch TV and are dropping them off I will tell you flat out that the TV may be on and I won’t stop it .

Presumable if you are allowing your child to come to my house then you know what my stand is and it is your choice to leave them with us.

We have lots of kids come to our home with allergies, etc. We have kids who come to our house who don’t like milk. I buy the things the like or can eat because they like it.

I think it is “rude” for a parent to expect me to compromise my beliefs a in my own home.

One of my beliefs is that children have a say in what they put in their own bodies.

If you feel your child may sneak food you don’t approve of- then don’t send to my house because I will not compromise my own beliefs and police your kids.
I don’t want my kids to see me police other peoples kids.

I don’t want to police any one’s kids. I will HONOUR a child’s choice -which I think solves the problem of serving kosher food. It is the respectful thing to do. If I have family over who are kosher we make a kosher meal. I also don’t make a kid feel left out or weird if they have CHOSEN to eat certain foods and make them uncomfortable.

I didn’t say I would not feed the Tofu dog you sent. I would appreciate it the thoughtfulness. But don’t expect me to discipline your child if the try and sneak a marshmallow from the cupboard.

If being a vegan is a decision you have made together as a family then expect your kids to self govern all I can do is honour it- not enforce it.

By respect I mean agreeing. I will agree to honour your right to believe whatever you want- I don’t respect the concept tho.

If I respected the concept of veganisim I would be a vegan. I respect your right to put whatever you want on your body- and your kids right if that’s what they chose.

Parents should think about the rules they enforce on their kids. ENFORCE is they key word. If some one is sneaking then something needs to be looked at.
Sneaking is a symptom of alot of other things and fodder for another post.

It is good you know yourself enough to see your own intolerance. Everyone, no matter how hard we try, have areas that we are less tolerant in.

I am the mother of a young, homeschooled, vegan, no sugar family.

You do not have to like it. You do not have to agree with it. You do not have to have my kids over. Those are your rights.

You DO NOT EVER, have the right, to allow other children to break their family rules. Especially without first warning the parents that you do not plan on respecting their feelings on important issues.

I don’t expect other people to go out of their way and buy rice milk and tofu when my daughter visits. I send it with her.

I do not feel though, it is asking too much for a parent to feed my child the tofu I sent instead of a hot dog. Or at the very least, let me know ahead of time so I can make other plans.

Anything short of that is just rude.

Either the kids just don’t click with each other, or the mom & I don’t, or we live too far apart, or they *say* they “unschool except for math” when what they mean is that they do workbooks for math, but still get all “teachy” at their kids whenever the poor kid expresses an interest in anything else, and they don’t actually “get” homeschooling at all, OR they’re *so* radical in their “unschooling” that they don’t actually do any *parenting*, and their kids are running roughshod over them, the neighbors, my kids, and everyone else they encounter, because they’ve never learned that other people have boundaries that must be respected.

Yeah.
I feel your pain ;->
Great blog!