Hanging Out With Mainstream Moms… Honouring Other People’s Dumb Ideas and Religion??
yuck. More and more I can’t be around so-called mainstream families and a lot of homeschool moms. We are radical unschoolers which isn’t that odd here- but other similar style parenting families may not have kids my kids play with….
Yesterday my VERY shy son met a friend at a homeschooling event.. the mom was quite nice and her little boy adorable ( 4 years old ). The other older kids were doing something and I mentioned I had some paints, etc and did he want to do them with us- he replied he couldn’t because he had to do his homework. Yikes…
Later on the two boys talking about games and my son asked me for his Game-boy to show his new friend. His mom stopped me and said that she would prefer if her son didn’t look at it- and that he kids were not allowed video games…
My son was totally perplexed. I find it hard trying to explain other people stupid ideas and concepts to my kids. I am being blunt here. I normally don’t refer to other people ideas as stupid… this is one place I feel like I can be very raw and honest and not choose my words carefully.
I did tell my son that other families have different rules , etc and it REALLY bugged me that now MY son couldn’t play with his game boy… well I could have taken it out but in my mind wold have been more cruel to have that little boy watching B. play then B. waiting to play until later…
I have come across other families with rules that make no sense to me and have to curb my behaviour and go along with it. We have a boy come visit us and stay over night and his dad doesn’t allow him to have sugar… I though this was some kind of food allergy thing but turns out its because of dentist bills. The kids can have sugar Christmas, Halloween and Easter. They CAN have potato chips, raisin, dried fruits, etc which are just as bad if not worse! Have they not heard of a tooth brush??? So while they are here I am supposed to police them… which I just cant do so I tell parents that there kids can follow the rules but I am not here to enforce rules… Would I be different if it was an allergy- yes.
I have a very good friend who is vegetarian as are her kids. were were out one day and her daughter ordered a chicken sandwich and I asked her if it was okay and she said yes. I did feel weird… I mentioned to the mom that I felt I had to respect the child’s desire to have the sandwich and not follow a “rule” … The mom knew exactly where I was coming from and told me her kids could eat whatever they wanted and was their choice. Whew.
A religious thing? I don’t know. I am a DIE HARD atheist and believe people have a right to follow there own spiritual path,. I don’t think I could “enforce” if Jewish girl went fro a piece of bacon at the table. I highly doubt an orthodox family would let there kids stay in a home that wasn;t kosher and if they did there are all ready all kinds of rules being broken.
I certainly don’t think I would push the issue and wouldn’t serve pork but diary + meat would be hard. Tough one for me.
I am not sure I can even respect religious laws. I have been grappling with the idea of tolerance being the same as condoning vs. the right to choose your own path and feel more and more strongly that tolerating a stupid religion is the same as condoning (and by stupid I mean ALL ) . My belief is that religion is a weapon used to CONTROL thoughts and actions of people and very dangerous.
I also know if I were to express my real feeling my kids would have a VERY small pool of kids to play with 
I can’t just narrow my social choices to other radical unschooling, atheist families. Hard one to balance.
I empathize with you! I think it is ridiculous for parents to ask you to enforce their rules in your house (especially the one about the sugar!). I monitor what my children eat and watch TV to some extent (we are vegetarians at home and I try to keep them away from some violent and sexual visual content), but at the same time I realize that when they go to someone else’s house, they need to abide by what is allowed or not allowed in that house. If they choose to eat meat, it is their choice. Most importantly, I want my kids to learn that every family is different, and that they do have to make behavioral choices away from home, and, in addition, they have the option of straying from my “dictates” (which aren’t very firm to begin with) if they so choose. As for safety rules in different households, I have had some issues with my children’s friends who have parents who are much more cautious than I am. For a while, I had a strong feeling (although nothing was ever said to me about it) that one of my daughter’s friends was not allowed to come over because I allow the children to go into the woods and fields behind my house, alone (without an adult), and I got the impression that this child’s parents did not like this. I had mixed feelings over how to handle it. Part of me felt that these parents were overprotective, and that the child really did need to be allowed to roam, and part of me wanted to respect the other parent’s comfort levels. I ended up allowing the girls to go out, but making sure that they carried a walkie-talkie with them so that I could call them. I’ve had other parents who don’t like their kids getting as dirty as they do when they come over to our house. My response - bring an extra set of clothes! Part of the fun of going to someone else’s house is being able to experience new things. If you are so rigid in your rules, you are not going to allow your child to develop a sense of responsibility for himself, which kids so desperately need to be able to do. Luckily I haven’t run into as many rigid parents as you have, so I haven’t had as many problems with making choices that might prevent my kids from making friends.
I’ve even *tried* limiting my social contact to other atheist/radical unschooling families - no luck, there either.
Either the kids just don’t click with each other, or the mom & I don’t, or we live too far apart, or they *say* they “unschool except for math” when what they mean is that they do workbooks for math, but still get all “teachy” at their kids whenever the poor kid expresses an interest in anything else, and they don’t actually “get” homeschooling at all, OR they’re *so* radical in their “unschooling” that they don’t actually do any *parenting*, and their kids are running roughshod over them, the neighbors, my kids, and everyone else they encounter, because they’ve never learned that other people have boundaries that must be respected.
Yeah.
I feel your pain ;->
Great blog!
I would be one of “those” parents you speak of.
It is good you know yourself enough to see your own intolerance. Everyone, no matter how hard we try, have areas that we are less tolerant in.
I am the mother of a young, homeschooled, vegan, no sugar family.
You do not have to like it. You do not have to agree with it. You do not have to have my kids over. Those are your rights.
You DO NOT EVER, have the right, to allow other children to break their family rules. Especially without first warning the parents that you do not plan on respecting their feelings on important issues.
I don’t expect other people to go out of their way and buy rice milk and tofu when my daughter visits. I send it with her.
I do not feel though, it is asking too much for a parent to feed my child the tofu I sent instead of a hot dog. Or at the very least, let me know ahead of time so I can make other plans.
Anything short of that is just rude.
Why do You think I am rude? Read my post again.
It is about enforcing rules not honouring them.
When I read the title of the post above it is mean spirited.
I get frustrated trying balance living in mainstream world and having ideas and philosophies that are bit outside the box ( where we live anyway)
We are all one of THOSE parents. we all have different ideas.
I have a radical unschooling blog. I am not writing about ways to make my kids conform.
You might not ever send your kid to my house. I hope you wouldn’t have them come over without knowing me or anything about our family and how it works.
You write ” You DO NOT EVER, have the right, to allow other children to break their family rules.”
Umm. yeah I do. In my house. You do have a choice to bring them or not bring them I am not hiding anything.
If in your house kids are given a time out or spanked when they don’t finish food on their plate or talk back i am not going to give them time out or spank them.
If you tell me that you don;t allow your kids to watch TV and are dropping them off I will tell you flat out that the TV may be on and I won’t stop it .
Presumable if you are allowing your child to come to my house then you know what my stand is and it is your choice to leave them with us.
We have lots of kids come to our home with allergies, etc. We have kids who come to our house who don’t like milk. I buy the things the like or can eat because they like it.
I think it is “rude” for a parent to expect me to compromise my beliefs a in my own home.
One of my beliefs is that children have a say in what they put in their own bodies.
If you feel your child may sneak food you don’t approve of- then don’t send to my house because I will not compromise my own beliefs and police your kids.
I don’t want my kids to see me police other peoples kids.
I don’t want to police any one’s kids. I will HONOUR a child’s choice -which I think solves the problem of serving kosher food. It is the respectful thing to do. If I have family over who are kosher we make a kosher meal. I also don’t make a kid feel left out or weird if they have CHOSEN to eat certain foods and make them uncomfortable.
I didn’t say I would not feed the Tofu dog you sent. I would appreciate it the thoughtfulness. But don’t expect me to discipline your child if the try and sneak a marshmallow from the cupboard.
If being a vegan is a decision you have made together as a family then expect your kids to self govern all I can do is honour it- not enforce it.
By respect I mean agreeing. I will agree to honour your right to believe whatever you want- I don’t respect the concept tho.
If I respected the concept of veganisim I would be a vegan. I respect your right to put whatever you want on your body- and your kids right if that’s what they chose.
Parents should think about the rules they enforce on their kids. ENFORCE is they key word. If some one is sneaking then something needs to be looked at.
Sneaking is a symptom of alot of other things and fodder for another post.
#1.
Reading your story about giving that child a chicken sandwich made me angry. You didn’t know how the mom would feel, so it seems reasonable to assume she hadn’t been warned of your philosophy. That seems very rude to me.
You are right that I should know the parent and trust them before my child spends time with them. Yet just because I like you and we get along doesn’t mean I have a clue that you will not enforce my rules.
I respect, though I do not agree…with your way of doing things.I just think it is so very rude not to warn parents before you have their kids over.
#2
Since We are vegan partly in protest to the horrible factory farms, I do not feel it is the right time to explain to my children about that torture. They are too young and sensitive right now. That does not mean that when they grow up a little more they won’t be given a choice.Right now though, they could not make an informed, much less mature choice. As a parent though, it is up to me to decide when I think they are mature enough. That is MY decision not some other parent with a different opinion.
As for sugar…most of our family has blood sugar problems due to life long sugar addictions. I refuse to set my children on that same path. When they are a little older and understand what it means to have an occasional treat without expecting it all the time, then they will have more say in what they get for a snack.
By that time, they will also have developed good, lifelong habits….my ultimate goal as a parent.
Children do have a right to say what happens to their bodies. They also have a right to responsible parenting that protects them from harm, even if that means, when they are young, limiting their choices. At some point, limits need to be lifted as they mature, so they can practice making good choices and learn from bad ones. Yet to give them free rein before they are ready is only irresponsible and naive.
When is a big decision, and best left up the parents of that child.
I am not sure that radical unschooling is for you- As I said- this is a radical unschooling blog and about my trying to balance that lifestyle in a mainstream community.
I am not trying to convert anyone or have them come round to my way of thinking, etc.
The chicken sandwich incident: the child was 13 years old. The situation made me uncomfortable which is why wrote about it.. Had the girl said no I most likely would have said if you have the chicken it may upset your mom and she may not not want you to hang out here and make it her choice.
I also spoke with my friend about it later and we would have been able to talk through the situation.
Explaining consequences and helping kids make good decision is what unschooling is about . Not JUST giving them free rein.
When you are truthful with kids from where then are small and look hard at decisions that may seem arbitrary then they trust you and you trust them.
You have no need to justify your families decisions. I don’t;have to understand your reasoning- I am trying to get across that is is unfair for others to expect a family with different values to enforce your practices. That is rude to me.
I don;t mean force feeding you kids and offering them forbidden foods- I mean when they make a choice to eat them/ask for them. Puts me in weird place. Would rather you didn’t send your kids along if you expect me to enforce rules I don’t follow.
You did say your kids were young so most likely your kids are not being left at others houses yet. As they get older your social network changes and you will be drawn to people who “think” like you. The challenge is trying to fit in with others that don’t.
In an homeschool or unschool environment there are most likely other vegans who have similar views to you. As kids get older and social circle branches out to neighbours or kids from dance or soccer having a viewpoint outside the norm gets really hard.
As potential home schooler you may have made choices all ready where you are constantly swimming upstream- nursing your kids til they or 3/4, co-sleeping, etc. an sometimes it is tiring.
When my kids got to be about 5 or 5- school age- going outside my comfort zone of like minded parents became harder. Even withing homeschooling community .
I like a lot of people however when my kids were small I didn’t have them go their houses. A long time ago I let my ;et 4 year sleep over at my brothers house. They had been asking for a long time and my daughter was really excited abut it. They had a small baby and all ready alarm bells were going off. I told then she most likely would need SIL to stay with her til she fell asleep and not to leave . That was the only my daughter was worried about. I spoke with them and could see them holding off from rolling there eyes. I know NOW they think I am nuts but back then didn’t fully realize the level of difference in our parenting.
I must have spoke with them about 4 times and was reassured they would not leave her , etc. Sure enough the next day when i got they they were quite proud to tel me that she went to be fine- they shut the lights out ” and she only cried for about 10 minutes and was fine”
I am still mad to this day. I felt lied to and regret leaving her there when I had y doubts.
If you asked me to not feed your 4 year old a hamburger I would not feed her a hamburger. If you ask me to not feed your 12 year old a hamburger I would actually tell you that wasn’t something i was comfortable with and would make me uncomfortable. If you were “making: your child not eat meat and they wanted to I would have a really hard time with it and we probably wouldn’t be friends.
The sugar one I don;t know why is different. Your kids are small so you have a lot of control over what they eat. If you sen d13 year out and couldn’t have sugar that is maybe where trouble starts.
A coupe of weeks ago a gril 12 was here and later I found out the family didn’t eat sugar- or not so much sugar as candy type stuff. Rules are but vague to me as they eat home made brownies and organic chocolate. Anyway- I took kids to bulk store and said they could pick out a treat and the one girl got some dates and that was it. Obviously was an ideal that she embraced and knew how to deal with.
Older kids can make a choice- If go to so and so’s house they don’t allow video games so leave DS here if you want to go.
My son has asthma and can’t be exposed to cigarette smoke. I don’t send him to a kids house where people smoke. I don’t ask the parent not to smoke in their house I just don’t send him.
Part of the process of unschooling is examining our choice and how we can do it different or better and I find a lot of it is taking responsibility for our own actions.
I think you and I should hang out! Really! I recently posted something quite similar over at my blog. Here’s the link:
http://www.naturalattachment.com/wordpress/2008/06/05/round-peg-in-a-square-hole-and-parental-venting-dont-read-if-you-are-easily-offended-when-it-comes-to-parenting-decisions/
Michele
[…] I am not alone in my thinking. This mum has many of the same thoughts. […]
Wow..some of these comments are truly scary. Vegan mom, guess what? You are guaranteed to have a very rebellious teen on your hands. Restricting every little thing your kids put in their bodies is NOT respectful of them as human beings. BTW,a little sugar is not going to kill them or send them on a pathof addiction. No wonder this country is going to hell. My god women, chill the f out.
If someone put a gun to my head i’d tell them that your lifestyle in my humble opinion is incredibly stupid. i’d tell them you were brainwashing your kids too. but the truth is, unless someone has a gun to my head i’d never even think about this issue, and i certainly would never try to limit my children’s exposure to only those who believe what i believe. what a stupid thing to do for someone who purports to letting her children make their own choices.
oh and this is off topic, but you really should learn proper spelling and grammar. i think you have interesting ideas but i have trouble understanding you, and i’m sure so do many others.
if you want people to understand and accept you, you may wish to work on your communication skills.
best of luck.
I think there’s a lack of basic respect for other people’s parenting choices here. You have the common courtesy to “choose your words carefully,” but inwardly you are groaning about how “stupid” other people’s ideas are. You speak of “honoring” other families’ customs, but only so far as they agree with your philosophy of allowing kids to choose. Really, if people don’t agree with you on that, you don’t have any respect for them.
On some level, I empathize, and even agree with you. You say that if you respected veganism, you’d be a vegan. I agree with that viewpoint; I follow the religion and philosophies that I do because I believe they are right. I can’t believe that completely opposite or contradictory viewpoints are also right. But you have to be able to get along with other people, and from your description, you seem to have a hard time getting along with anyone who strays too far from your beliefs. Not just because you refuse to “enforce” other people’s rules for their kids (see my opinion on that later), but because of your constant references to how difficult it is “going outside my comfort zone of like minded parents” and your questioning of whether you should ONLY hang out with other athiest radical unschoolers. Frankly, if you can’t get along with *most* people, maybe you should consider that you are the one with the problem.
As far as enforcing other parents rules, I suppose you do have every right to refuse, so long as you are upfront about it, which you say you are. Personally, believe it or not, if you were watching my kids it wouldn’t be an issue. I have taught my kids to self-”police” using JOY: Jesus, Others, Yourself. So if my kids were choosing a TV show at your house, the first thing they would consider is whether Jesus would approve, ie, appropriateness. I have taught my kids that if everyone else wants to watch a show that they know is not appropriate, they are to politely excuse themselves and find something else to do — that it’s rude to ask someone else not to watch a show they like in their own home. Secondly, they should consider others, ie, does this show offend Mrs. Unschool Radical? Are there small children around who would be frightened by this show? Finally, they consider themselves, choosing a show that they like from among all of the choices that are both appropriate and acceptable to those around them. Because of this, you don’t really need to worry about what my children are allowed to watch or want to watch — they’ll either happily watch what *you* like, or find something else to do. No problems, unless you can’t stand to hang out with people who follow a “stupid” religious precept like putting others before oneself.
reading this was awesome. i am working to become a teacher and you would not believe how controlling some of the parents and teachers are. it is repulsive and ignorant. so, would you let your kid drink root beer all day? i draw the line at like one soda a day. and some parents think that is crazy. that i have soda in the house. lordy. i love the idea of unschooling, though some of the onschooling parents i have seen seem REALY limited and like wannabes, like they’re following a treand. it has creeped me out, but i have seen some pretty sool exmples, too. anyway, i like your blog. imiss hschooling; i needed to go to work and the ex husb. was NOT behind me and that made for a stressful house. i did not like a lot of hschoolers and fit into the real school crowd better, but love that germ of thought that remembers when and knows how education can be so different.
Well, I sure know whose house I won’t be sending my kids to. Who do you think you are to decide that the “stupid” rules other parents make for their kids are just not worth being followed? Incredibly disrespectful.
And yes, I realize that this post is 3 years old. I was just so revolted by it that I feel compelled to comment.
I hope you’ve woken up since then.